Nine years ago today, Americans were forced into the conversion of an act of travel into acts of mass murder, by followers of a religion that claims to be peaceful, yet collects a trail of the bodies of those killed in its name wherever these followers happen to go. And on that day, the rest of us were assaulted with visions of incomprehensible evil on our television screens, the sounds of terror and chaos on the radio, and tales of desperation, fear, and ultimately death, in our print media. On that day, everything stopped. And everything changed.
Televisions flickered in household after household, the images replaying the horror over and over, while the various network talking heads continued to ramble as if they tried hard enough, they might find the right words. The right words to make themselves understand what they had witnessed. The right words to guide a stunned and shaken nation to a harbor of emotional stability and clarity. Each of us personally struggled with sorrow, with anger, with disbelief. The unusually silent skies, cruised only by military fighters on patrol, did not offer any relief for these emotions. And seeing images like these on our televisions as the day progressed offered a glimpse of the belief that refuses to be ignored, and is unrepentant about its actions:
I could have done without the peace of Islam that day, as could millions of others.
But then, as the evening approached, President Bush came to the microphone, as we expect our leaders to do at such moments, and he brought words that delivered, in part, what the pundits and anchors could not. I have excerpted parts below.
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Today, our fellow citizens, our way of life, our very freedom came under attack in a series of deliberate and deadly terrorist acts.
The victims were in airplanes or in their offices — secretaries, businessmen and women, military and federal workers. Moms and dads. Friends and neighbors.
Thousands of lives were suddenly ended by evil, despicable acts of terror.
The pictures of airplanes flying into buildings, fires burning, huge structures collapsing, have filled us with disbelief, terrible sadness and a quiet, unyielding anger.
These acts of mass murder were intended to frighten our nation into chaos and retreat. But they have failed. Our country is strong. A great people has been moved to defend a great nation.
Terrorist attacks can shake the foundations of our biggest buildings, but they cannot touch the foundation of America. These acts shatter steel, but they cannot dent the steel of American resolve.
America was targeted for attack because we’re the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world. And no one will keep that light from shining.
None of us will ever forget this day, yet we go forward to defend freedom and all that is good and just in our world.
Cant wait for the 9/11 anti GZ mosque rally today. Hope to run into some koranimals so I can tell them to take their taqiyya and shove it.
“These acts of mass murder were intended to frighten our nation into chaos and retreat. But they have failed. Our country is strong. A great people has been moved to defend a great nation.”
And 9 years later a mosque is going up on GZ, we have a muslim “president” and we show favor to the religion that flew those planes into the WTC.
Good post. Thanks.
And considering the outrage, we have continued to maintain our composure.
I mentioned this at my place, and I think it is an important element that is being lost in the hyperbole of both the mosque and the Koran burning: tolerance.
It is debatable whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion, but I don’t think it is very debatable the lack of tolerance in Islam. Many examples exist, but here’s a couple known winners:
The Satanic Verses– The publication of the book and the fatwā sparked violence around the world, with bookstores firebombed. Muslim communities in several nations in the West held public rallies in which copies of the book were burned. Several people associated with translating or publishing the book were attacked, seriously injured, and even killed. Many more people died in riots in Third World countries.
The Danish Cartoons of Muhammad– The Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy began after 12 editorial cartoons, most of which depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad, were published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten on 30 September 2005… This led to protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence with police firing on the crowds (resulting in an alleged total of more than 100 deaths), including setting fire to the Danish Embassies in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, storming European buildings, and desecrating the Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, French and German flags in Gaza City. Various groups, primarily in the Western world, responded by endorsing the Danish policies, including “Buy Danish” campaigns and other displays of support. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen described the controversy as Denmark’s worst international crisis since World War II.
To listen to the left, you’d think we’re the ones lacking tolerance for those different than ourselves. Of course, this ignores some important points, like history, and Islam itself.
Great post. Yes the anger is still there too, more so in light of the GZM.
Since Libs have a difficult time remembering why we are at war with Muslims, and I’m not buying their claims of the peaceful religion as we have numerous murderous incidents around the world each day in the name of allah, on a somber day with a humorous reminder to jog their memory. Left to a Lib’s own feckless accord and the cold dish called reality, they would already be wailing five times a day if not for brave men and women, including George Bush. Because Obama damn sure isn’t cutting it…
…Gen. Petraeus objected to the Quran-burning protest on the grounds that it could be used by radical jihadists to recruit Muslims to attack Americans.
This is what liberals say whenever we do anything displeasing to the enemy — invade Iraq, hold captured terrorists in Guantanamo, interrogate captured jihadists or publish Muhammad cartoons. Is there a website somewhere listing everything that encourages terrorist recruiting?
If the general’s main objective is to hamper jihadist recruiting, may I respectfully suggest unconditional surrender? Because on his theory, you know what would really kill the terrorists’ recruiting ability? If we adopted Sharia law!
But wait — weren’t we assured by Fire Island’s head of national security, Andrew Sullivan, that if America elected a “brown-skinned man whose father was an African, who grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii, who attended a majority-Muslim school as a boy,” the terrorists would look like a bunch of lunkheads and be unable to recruit?
It didn’t work out that way. There have been more terrorist attacks on U.S. soil by these allegedly calmed Muslims in Obama’s first 18 months in office than in the six years under Bush after he invaded Iraq.
Also, as I recall, there was no Guantanamo, no Afghanistan war and no Iraq war on Sept. 10, 2001. And yet, somehow, Osama bin Ladin had no trouble recruiting back then. Can we retire the “it will help them recruit” argument yet?
The reason not to burn Qurans is that it’s unkind — not to jihadists, but to Muslims who mean us no harm. The same goes for building a mosque at ground zero — in both cases, it’s not a question of anyone’s “rights,” it’s just a nasty thing to do. ~ Ann Coulter
Just wait until Mahmoud gets enough U-235 and we will see just how wrong these Libs were. Fortunately, those evil Jooos will probably bail us out. Because Obama damn sure won’t. 😉
Tex,
The thing is that the koran is the recruiting tool for jihadists. islam’s own founder was its 1st jihadist. And you are right about jihadist activity and al-Thuggy. Remember I brought that up on Dodger’s blog before the coward banned me. It has spiked since that POS was elected. Thankfully jihadists are inept or we would still be picking up plane parts over Detroitistan and body parts in Time Square.
We will always remember, but we should also reflect. We have repeatedly stated that we’re not at war with Islam. We’ve repeated the mantra over and over again because we don’t want the global Islamic community and the Islamic countries we’re allied with to think we’re targeting their faith, which of course we’re not. What has that gotten us?
Really, what has it gotten us?
Saudi efforts against al Qaida didn’t really materialize until after AQ starting attacking the Kingdom. Likewise with the other Arab states that have experienced their own threats from radical Islamic terrorism, they’re full support and attention didn’t materialize until later on. These are Arab, Islamic states under as much of a threat as Europe and here, so if they’re threatened, really, is anything we say going to matter?
BIC, as usual you have included a nugget of pure truth and insight. Indeed, for a religion that is labeled “peaceful” by the deluded appeasers of the Ruling Class and their devoted sycophants, Islam leaves an enormous trail of bodies as testimony to their aims of conquest and/or intimidation.
To be sure, there are adherents to Islam who decry the barbarism, hatred and violence that far too often accompanies projection of the Islamic way of life. But until these “moderate” Muslims achieve significant influence to ensure acceptance of and co-existence with other societies and religions, it will be the vision of Islam as a would-be dominant world dictator that predominates in the minds of many. Peace is built through the absence of aggression and provocation and Islam has yet to abandon those characteristics.
Dont forget to wear your hijabs and skull caps today drones.
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/11/over-6500-useful-idiots-sign-up-to-wear-the-hijab-on-911-anniversary/
Great post. But, sadly, President George W. Bush refused to acknowledge the truth about Islam…
“These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith, and it’s important for my fellow Americans to understand that… The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorist don’t represent peace. They represent evil and war.” ~ George W. Bush (Sept 17, 2001)
“Islam brings hope and comfort to more than a billion people worldwide. Islam affirms God’s justice, and insists on Man’s moral responsibility.” ~ George W. Bush (December 5, 2002)
Natassia,
Bush wasnt a muslim like the current “president” but he played a good dhimmi.
Another excerpt from Bush’s speech following 9/11 – one that some of your commenters would do well to remember:
The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics, a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam…
I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists…
I disagreed with Bush on many fronts, but on this one, his rhetoric (at least) was RIGHT ON. We were not at war with Islam. We are STILL not at war with Islam. Anyone who suggests such nonsense are being belligerent and damaging to the causes of rationality and peace, working against America’s own interests, I’d say.
Thanks Dan, for providing more examples of his denial and dhimmitude. 🙂
You expect Bush is in on the plot to overthrow American values and embrace sharia law in the US? Dang Muslims, they’ve even taken over our conservative leaders!
“I admire the Islam [sic]. There’s a lot of good principles in it. I think one of the great tragedies of the 21st century is that these forces of evil have perverted what’s basically an honorable religion.”
~John McCain
“This war – and that is what it is, a war – is not, as some have said, a clash of civilizations. We are not at war with Islam. This is a war within Islam, where a small minority of violent killers seeks to impose their view on the vast majority of Muslims who want the same things all of us want: economic opportunity, education, and the chance to build a better life for themselves and their families.”
~Sarah Palin
“I do not believe Muslims are evil people because of their faith. I personally have many Muslim friends. But I decry the evil that has been done in the name of Islam, or any other faith–including Christianity.
I agree with President Bush that as a country we are at war with terrorists, not with Islam.”
~Franklin Graham (Billy’s son)
The conspiracy is vast!
Hmmm…I knew there was a good reason I’m not a Palin/McCain fan. 🙂
there are adherents to Islam who decry the barbarism, hatred and violence that far too often accompanies projection of the Islamic way of life.
By the way, there’s a term for these rational and peaceful Muslims: THE VAST MAJORITY.
I’d suggest we’d do well to embrace them and support them as fellow workers for peace and justice, and unite against only those who’d embrace deadly violence against innocents.
If the vast majority is “rational and peaceful”, then why is some rinky-dink church burning some Korans considered a “threat to national security”?
Umm, because of the violent minority?
No one is saying that there is not an element of extremists who identify as Muslims who are terroristic and who embrace and support violence. THOSE are the people we NEED to oppose and strongly so.
But, the more we make this a war against Islam, the more we’ll find that to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The more we embrace and support the reasonable and peaceful Muslims, the more we can stand TOGETHER against violent extremism.
Hmmm….let’s think about it…
The violent minority are already violent. It doesn’t matter what we do or don’t do. So why the big fuss of the Koran-burning again?
Or is there a possibility that the non-violent Muslims will become Muslim if provoked by such an atrocious act like Koran-burning is committed?
Oh, say it isn’t so!
Sorry Dan, Islam consistently fails the tolerance test.
Salman Rushdie, Danish Cartoons, now this, please. And besides, we don’t hear from the vast majority, so how do you know they’re not quietly in agreement?
So, we ARE at war with Islam? Is that what you’re saying?
Step up and claim that position clearly if that’s what you’re saying.
We don’t hear from the vast majority? Well, that all depends upon who you listen to, doesn’t it? IF all you choose to do with your time is watch the few extremists cutting off heads, celebrating murder, engaging in terrorism, then that may well be all you see.
But that doesn’t mean that’s all there is. There’s a whole world of information out there beyond http://www.hatemuslimkillers.com or FoxNews.
Survey after survey shows that Muslims are vastly opposed to terrorism. Group after group of Muslim peacemakers speak out against such behavior.
So, it all depends on what you’re looking for, I’d suggest.
Is there TOO MUCH violence accepted by too many Muslims? I’d say, yes, clearly so. Is it a much worse problems for Muslims than, say, Christians? I’d say so, yes.
But that does not mean that all Muslims embrace terrorism or that we’re at war with Islam.
So are we at war with Islam?
Hell yes we are. We’ve been at war with Islam since, what, the ’70s when Muslims started bombing our embassies.
Muslims are vastly opposed to “terrorism” but they’re not opposed to jihad, are they?
Hmmm….maybe they don’t like “terrorism” because so many moderate Muslims are killed by the terrorists too.
Vastly? I think you’re over abundant in your use of vastly.
Read: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world
I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It’s practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists…
No, “WE” don’t respect that faith. I respect their right to practice it (at least the parts where they aren’t making demands and killing people in accord with its teachings), but as I responded to a frequent manure peddler at another site where I posted this:
Dan, you are fortunate. Right now, you have the luxury of ignoring the body count, the blind, seething rage that travels the very short distance from within the religion to its face whenever they decide to be offended by something. You can pretend that all the freindly ones will never change their tune or find the commitment to the violence that so many of their bretherern have discovered. You can continue to focus on their words with nary a thought to the actions that characterize the practice of their faith worldwide. You can choose not to dwell on the deeper meaning of our government pressuring a nobody to not exercise his right to free expression, no matter how stupid said expression is, out of
fear“concern” over violence because of how they view that exercise.Some of us choose not to play in the sunshine, blithely ignoring the storm visible on the horizion. Islam as it exists today is not compatible with the guarantees of freedom that our government was entrusted with over two hundred years ago. Saying otherwise won’t make it so, and as annoying as you can be, I would prefer to not see you, your family, or your freinds fall to an ascending caliphate because you are Americans.
I fully agree with being prejudiced against such ideas as you have listed, BiW. What I am opposed to is being blinded by bigotry, in assuming the whole can be measured by the actions of the few. I am just as prejudiced against such bigotry as I am against violence in the name of religion.
What I am opposed to is being blinded by bigotry, in assuming the whole can be measured by the actions of the few.
The “whole” are allowing themselves to be defined by the actions of the “few”. The protests against this mythical “radical” element are anemic and tepid, and most of the time are nothing more than crickets chirping, or a word softly spoken into the face of a malestrom. As I look at the record on Islam, I cannot assume that the muslims who haven’t yet killed people will refrain from doing so because they are “moderate” as much as they haven’t yet seen an advantage to doing so.
BIC, you have clearly enumerated the parts of Islam that directly conflict with not only Christianity, but with the basic tenants of many other religions. I, too, will freely admit prejudice when reviewing these clear instances of denial of basic human rights.
There are those Muslims who also speak out against these injustices and face censure, and much worse, from their religious leaders. Unfortunately, this is a small part of the mass of the followers of Islam.
Are we at war with Islam? Not yet. But Western cultures are certainly in conflict with a religion/society whose expressed goal is world domination.
Are we at war with Islam, BiW? In your opinion?
In my opinion, Islam is at war with us, Dan.
I think Islam was at war with us in the days of the Barbary Pirates, and I think it rekindled the conflict with the attack on our embassy in Tehran.
What I think has changed is that since the violence is so widespread, and is in every corner of the globe, we no longer have the luxury of pretending that it can’t happen here, and that we do not need to meet it.
So, when you say, “Islam is at war with us,” what do you mean by that?
Obviously, not every Muslim is wanting to kill everyone else, nor take over every nation, so what does it mean to you when you say, “Islam is at war with us.”
If one says, “France is at war with us,” then we have a choice (most would say) of engaging in war (ie, deadly violence) back against France – all of France – or surrendering to France, giving in to whatever demands they have, or of attempting to negotiate some peace somehow.
What does it mean to you for us if “Islam is at war with us?”
Also, usually when someone says “X is at war with us,” that would mean that the leader of X has issued a declaration of war. Who in Islam, speaking for all of Islam, has declared war against “us,” and who is “us?” All non-Muslims? The US? The West?
BiW…
You can pretend that all the freindly ones will never change their tune or find the commitment to the violence that so many of their bretherern have discovered.
Perhaps you missed the point I made where I said quite clearly, WE NEED TO EMBRACE AND SUPPORT THE RATIONAL AND PEACEFUL Muslims. We need to make clear that this is not a war against Islam, but against some few who engage in horrible acts. Acts against MUSLIMS as well as Christians and anyone else.
The MORE we can engage with, dialogue with and support the vast majority of moderate Muslims, the more we can isolate and marginalize the haters and killers.
Logically, this is what we need to do. There are too many extremists who identify as Muslims as it is – thousands, maybe tens of thousands.
The intelligent approach is to marginalize THOSE dangerous few and come out as allies to the billion or so moderates. It would be foolishness in the extreme to turn this into a war against the full billion + Muslims in the world.
When some from a group misbehaves, you target those that misbehave, not the whole group. Do you disagree with this common sense strategy?
Perhaps you missed the point I made where I said quite clearly, WE NEED TO EMBRACE AND SUPPORT THE RATIONAL AND PEACEFUL Muslims. We need to make clear that this is not a war against Islam, but against some few who engage in horrible acts. Acts against MUSLIMS as well as Christians and anyone else.
I didn’t miss your point, I simply don’t think that being Polyanna to a savage horde ends well for Polyanna.
When the western educated, young professional children of the “rational and peaceful” muslims decide to walk away from the freedoms that they and their parents enjoy in the west in order to “follow their faith” into jihad, I take it as a sign that something is wrong with that faith.
The MORE we can engage with, dialogue with and support the vast majority of moderate Muslims, the more we can isolate and marginalize the haters and killers.
And with the doctrine of taqiya, how do you know that you’ve engaged a “moderate” instead of a “radical” who is merely biding their time? Better yet, how is it with a religion that embraces that laundry list I posted previously that you define that ones that act in accordance with those tenants as “Radical”?
Logically, this is what we need to do. There are too many extremists who identify as Muslims as it is – thousands, maybe tens of thousands.
The intelligent approach is to marginalize THOSE dangerous few and come out as allies to the billion or so moderates. It would be foolishness in the extreme to turn this into a war against the full billion + Muslims in the world.
Dan, they aren’t being marginalized now. Instead of making them show who they are, much of the world choses instead to curtail its own activity and walk on eggshells around them. We can’t let them show the world how dangerous they are by publishing a cartoon, because people might get killed. We can’t let a nobody display his own brand of stupidity by burning their book without the Leader of the Free World and his subordinates wringing their hands over the violence and intolerance that practioners of the Religion of Peace will gladly display. We cannot hope to engage them and marginalize the most savage of them if we refuse to approach them as equals, or even (gasp!) superior to them. Constant deferrance means that if we try your approach, we negotiate from weakness, and that will not win anyone over.
Frankly, I’m trying hard to think of anything redemptive in the religion which makes an attempt at engagement and dialogue an advisable course of action.
I think that the only strategy that has proven itself when dealing with snarling dogs is having the abilty to, and actually swatting them across the snout hard enough to bring tears to their eyes.
“Perhaps you missed the point I made where I said quite clearly, WE NEED TO EMBRACE AND SUPPORT THE RATIONAL AND PEACEFUL Muslims. We need to make clear that this is not a war against Islam, but against some few who engage in horrible acts. Acts against MUSLIMS as well as Christians and anyone else.” – Dan
Bull shit. More Muslims are killed by Islamic extremists than non-Muslims, so I’d say they need us a hell of a lot more than we need them. Here’s a novel idea, why don’t THEY embrace the free principles of the West and support our efforts to counter THEIR radical extremists? See, that’s the problem with you pacifists- you’ll bend to the wrong in the name of “peace” when it is they who need to bend to us in the name of what is right.
Thanks for this BiW. Saw it over at Hostages earlier. Thanks.
So, when you say, “Islam is at war with us,” what do you mean by that?
I mean that when they have seen an opportunity to kill westerners, or those who do not share their beliefs, they have done so.
Again, Dan, I’m talking about a pattern. Its the same MO they have had for centuries, the difference being that there is no Charles Martel in this day and age to halt this encroachment on the West.
So, what is your proposal in dealing with this “war?”
Who do we target and how?
You don’t like my notion (and Bush’s and Obama’s, etc) of engaging and supporting the moderates and targeting just those who misbehave, so what is your counter-proposal?
1. Stop bowing to them. Stop surrending our sovereignty to their sensibilities, and if they manage to kill those of us who “offend” them, then we introduce them to their maker all up close and personal like. We make it clear that they will share in the consequence of their actions, and those consequences will not include death by talking.
2. As more and more secuumb to the pervasive ‘offense’ that justifies their barbarity, who it is that you respond to will become more and more clear, as Europe awakens to its tragic predicament, and those muslims who are here decide that they no longer wish to be defined by those who stone, who behead, and beat and kill their own families to defend the religion.
I agree, no bowing to them is a good thing. Not surrendering our sovereignty is a good thing. No arguments there.
And target the ones who actually commit crimes and capture and punish them, not arguments there.
We agree, then. With the caveat that what I consider being respectful, you probably consider “bowing.”
If so, then you’re just mistaken.
So then, who do you think is “bowing” to Islam and surrendering sovereignty? Any examples?
Extreme prejudice through the application of overwhelming force.
What does that mean, Gorilla, “extreme prejudice?” Random bombings of Muslims wherever they exist? Begin a little Crusade against ~1/6th the world’s population?
You’re not so insane as to think that’s a good idea, are you?
Of course not Dan, it means that when you find an element to get rid of it as quickly as possible. You don’t ponder things, you crush the cell.
Dan, who are the moderates? Specifically.
How do you know?
What exactly are they doing right now?
“We were not at war with Islam.”
True but islam is at war with us.
“You don’t like my notion (and Bush’s and Obama’s, etc) of engaging and supporting the moderates.”
Whats a “moderate”? Someone who adheres to the teachings of islam and follows the examples of mo-bomb-ed or someone who doesnt?
“So, when you say, “Islam is at war with us,” what do you mean by that?”
It means islam teaches muslims to fight the unbelievers until islam reigns everywhere. What part dont you understand?
BTW Dan, I offered a counterpoint to your assertions about Jefferson on the Honor thread.
9/11/10 Koran Burning at Ground Zero Mosque
Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!
Burn baby burn!!!
I think his Koran burning actually went okay. Thank God. Police escorted the guy out of the crowd. They were gentle, working to help him get out of harm’s way, which was their job. A good job.
The guy’s smile was kinda cool. Not saying much was good, I think. Not sharing his name or making a statement. It was weird to watch all those media types following him block after block while he said little… all of them pushing and shouting questions at him. It seemed they were trying to hook him or goad him into a conversation, but his point, I believe, was to simply let out the sizzle the static electricity that has been building.
Yea — Let out the sizzle. Burning the book is not cool, I think, but maybe he simply felt that he would take his chances making a clear demonstration that he could and would do it. He had freedom to do it and was permitted to. I don’t think he really wanted attention for himself — maybe I’m wrong. But to do it at Ground Zero on the anniversary of such a horrible travesty and insult to America was maybe the most appropriate place. Maybe his way of saying we are not afraid of you nor will we be manipulated by your threats in our free country. Maybe he did it for us.
Every time I see that famous photo of Billy Ayers standing on our Flag in that alley I feel a little pain in my gut. I feel persoally insulted. When I was a girl in Girl Scouts, we were taught how to honor the flag, never to permit it to touch the ground and how to fold it and care for it to show honor. Wow – how things have changed, huh.
At the very end of this video I was recalling a scene from the movie “Forrest Gump” when he just kept running and running and all those folks kept following him thinking that it all meant something. And then he just stopped running and they thought that had meaning too. This guy’s media followers sorta reminded me of the morons following Forrest Gump. Precious.
“So then, who do you think is “bowing” to Islam and surrendering sovereignty? Any examples?”
How about placing islam above criticism? You know, when a “president” says its ok to build a mosque on Ground Zero but when it comes to burning a koran, its a no no and uses the Federal government to strong arm a private citizen from using free speech. Of course you will not respond because you are a coward. If I am wrong, show me how.
I like pie.
So then, who do you think is “bowing” to Islam and surrendering sovereignty? Any examples?
Forcing Nike to recall 800,000 pairs of shoes because they thought the logo for “Air” looked a little too much like the arabic script of “Allah”.
Newspapers the world over that refused to print the Allah cartoons, not because they weren’t newsworthy…the stories they printed demonstrated that the opposite, was true, but because they chose fear over looking the Religion of Peace in the eye.
The constant lecture to the American people about our tolerance and acceptance of Islam every time its followers kill, maim, burn or destroy, as if it were our conduct and reactions that were a potential problem. (I mean, fer crying out loud, they turn airliners into cruise missiles and kill thousands of us, and we didn’t react by burning mosques, raping and killing their women, or stoning their holy men, but Pastor Montag of the Church of Farenheit 451 threatens to burn some Korans and they start attacking embassies…let’s compare and contrast, shall we?)
The constant fiction about muslims’ contribution to America, but God help you if you should talk about the very real and abundant Christian contributions to this nation. (Muslim civilization gave us the zero…a fitting contribution if you consider it…)
The constant fiction about the goodness of Islam, which is why we are always waiting our turn to distribute aid until they’re done doing it themselves whenever a disaster strikes anywhere in the world…oh wait, that’s right, that much vaunted “Islamic goodness” never seems to translate into charity and aid for those who get wiped out by tidal waves, and earthquakes, and typhoons and…
Forcing Nike to recall 800,000 pairs of shoes because they thought the logo for “Air” looked a little too much like the arabic script of “Allah”.
I’m not familiar with this story, but from the little I’ve seen online, it appears that Nike produced these shoes, Muslims (a legitimate market for Nike, I presume) said they didn’t like the logo and Nike, not wanting to lose customers, removed the offending logo and apologized.
That’s the free market at work, ain’t it? It doesn’t appear anyone “forced” Nike to do anything.
If I understand the story correctly, it doesn’t sound any different than any other boycott. What’s wrong with that?
With the media choosing not to (I don’t believe they were “forced” either) show an offensive cartoon, I think they backed down too easily, especially since the response wasn’t a legitimate boycott, but violence. I could see that appearing to be a kowtowing to violence.
As to this…
The constant lecture to the American people about our tolerance and acceptance of Islam every time its followers kill, maim, burn or destroy, as if it were our conduct and reactions that were a potential problem.
I know of no one lecturing anyone to be tolerant of violence. I suspect you’re mistaken on that front.
On the other hand, striving to understand the roots of violence is always a good idea to me. Acknowledging our own imperfect ways and mistakes is always a good idea.
I don’t think acknowledging/considering our mistakes is a sign of anything but strength, certainly not “bowing” to terrorists.
No charities?
here
You’re not familiar with the Red Cross/Red CRESCENT people?
Again, perhaps you only see “evil” Muslims if that’s all you’re looking for. It’s not too hard to find charitable, honorable, peacemaking Muslims if you’re not closing your eyes to the possibility.
You know giving alms is one of the “five pillars” of Islam, do you not?
From wikipedia…
t is obligatory to give away 2.5% of ones savings and business revenue, as well as 5-10% of ones harvest, to the poor. The recipients include the destitute, the working poor, those who are unable to pay off their own debts, stranded travelers, and others who need assistance, with the general principle of zakaah always being that the rich should pay it to the poor. One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust.
Muslims are some of the stingiest people on the planet other than envirocommies and Democrats.
2.5% is NOTHING. NOTHING. It is a pathetic sum. We pay, what, 35% in taxes alone in America to help pay for not only our national defense but for medical care for the elderly, medical care for the poor, food for the poor, food for the not-so-poor, childcare for the poor, childcare for the not-so-poor…need I go on?
And THEN we also give the most money in charity than any other country on the planet.
Sorry but Islamic countries are STINGY.
P.S. Please be a man and stand up against evil. We need more men in this country willing to do that.
Natassia…
Muslims are some of the stingiest people on the planet other than envirocommies and Democrats.
Any evidence for that, or is this just unsupported prejudice against a group you don’t really know much about?
American Muslims ALSO pay taxes, taxes that go to all those places.
Being a man means standing up to slander and small-minded prejudice, which is evil, too. We DO need more men and women to take honorable stands against such boorish behavior.
From the New York Times, Aug 20:
The United Nations began an appeal on Aug. 11 for $460 million to provide immediate aid to flood victims. By Wednesday, nations, organizations and individuals had sent $231 million, and had pledged an additional $40 million.
The United States was by far the largest single donor, with $82 million, according to United Nations figures, with Australia the next largest donor at $26.6 million. The United States said its total contributions amounted to $90 million, including helicopters, boats and temporary bridges, according to the State Department.
Not all the aid was flowing through the United Nations. Britain, for example, has sent more than $40 million, and the European Union said it would double its aid to more than $90 million.
Although the disaster has fallen in the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, when charity is considered a duty, Muslim states have donated virtually nothing via the United Nations and relatively small sums on their own. Turkey was the largest such donor, with more than $11 million, and Kuwait donated $5 million, United Nations figures show. Saudi Arabia has pledged more than $80 million, but United Nations records indicate none of it has been delivered.
BiC,
You are a smart guy. You know drones never apply standards equally. Conservatives, Christians and white people are held a higher standard than muslims, liberals and minorities.
Natassia,
Isnt it funny that these drones throw out quotes from the right. Its if these drones expect us to be drones of the right as they are with the left. So what that Bush or Palin said these things. Doesnt mean I automatically agree with them.
They think conservatives worship Bush and Palin because liberals tend to worship Obama.
I think a good question re this thread is hat does Dan mean by, being respectful?
BIC,Powerful post!
Just the standard English definition. Hold in high regard. Be decent towards. In the Christian world, we believe, as Paul tells us, we ought to “Show proper respect to everyone.”
Any problem with that?
Natassia,
Actually islam has been at war with us since islam was spawned. I mean we as in non muslims.
Outraged Muslims Burn Effigy of Florida Pastor Terry Jones in Dearborn, Michigan…
http://www.freep.com/article/20100910/NEWS02/100910071/1320/Muslims-in-Dearborn-burn-effigies-of-Florida-pastor-Osama-bin-Laden
You think the POS “president” will condemn this drones? No, of course not. Its fellow muslims doing the burning.
Cathy,
I like the guy saying “Hamas yes,. Hate, no”. Very telling. Another telling part was the reporter asking why he did it and if he was afraid of muslims coming after him. Thats the whole point. muslims react with violence. You would think these liberal drones could put the pieces together.
Dan is a lost cause. He will keep applying double standards and make excuses for the left’s pet religion.
BiC,
You forgot to mention muslims wanting special treatment in the work place.
“No charities?”
Really? How much aid went to Haiti from muslim nations? Idiot
“with the general principle of zakaah always being that the rich should pay it to the poor.”
Does that include poor non muslims that cant pay the jizya? Moron
I do hope by now it has become apparent Dan is an apologist for evil, a nutjob, a lib, and a bum that hides behind the skirt of freedom not earned, liberties not appreciated, a military taken for granted, and an ancestry of pacifists worthy of King George.
Retching…
Tex,
I told everyone thats what he is.
We need REAL MEN willing to stand up against evil. Men who are not afraid to be seen as “intolerant” (I mean, God forbid a man is called “intolerant.” That’s the equivalent of saying he has a small penis, you know.)
That’s why I love blogs like this one. It reminds me that there are still real men out there (other than the one I’m married to. 😉 )
“They think conservatives worship Bush and Palin because liberals tend to worship Obama.”
Exactly
“Any problem with that?”
Yes jackass, because islam doesnt show respect to non muslims. Case in point, the Cordoba mosque. If these muslims want to build bridges and have interfaith dialogue, build it in Mecca and invite non muslims.
Any problem with that jerkoff?
A non-Muslim man who shows respect to Islam is like a black man showing respect for white supremacy and a woman showing respect for misogyny.
Notice the drone didnt answer on aid to Haiti by islamic nations? Coward
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country
Check that out.
“American Muslims ALSO pay taxes, taxes that go to all those places.”
Taxes isnt charity no matter what you moronic drones think. God you are pathetic even for a drone.
American Muslims are a tiny portion of our population. Islamic countries in general, however, are not very charitable.
Besides, how is “obligatory charity” (which is what zakat is) not an oxymoron?
If you are obligated to give something, how is it “charity”?
It isn’t.
And Paul knew it:
2 Corinthians 6-7
Jewish and Christian folks are generally expected to give at least 10% and I’d say most fairly orthodox Christians would agree that we are to give God ALL we have.
We are expected to give to the least of these. Those who don’t, the Bible tells us, are not living in the ways of God.
And YOU are the one who brought up tax money as an example of charity, not me. I was just pointing out that if you’re going to use tax money as
I do agree with you, though. It’s not shocking that MUSLIM DICTATORSHIPS aren’t generous with their help and money. Dictatorships aren’t generally generous, so no surprise there.
Look, in case you missed it, I am a Christian. I don’t think Islam has it right, generally. I think there is a great deal wrong with Islam as it is practiced in this world too often. WHEN individual Muslims (or nationally, where it’s a Muslim country) are oppressive towards women, gays and other folk, THEY ARE WRONG. When individual Muslims (or in groups) attack and kill people, THEY ARE WRONG. I’ve said this repeatedly, but sometimes folk seem to forget that. I’m not defending misbehaving Muslims.
What I’m saying is that it is wrong to blame the whole for the actions of the few. Not only is it wrong, but to encourage that as national policy is stupid. You go after the bad actors and recruit the support of the rational folk. That’s just common sense and basic logical morality.
Natassia,
Isnt that sad? Even when it comes to aid for muslim nations, its the dirty kafir that foots most of the bill.
Of course. And then to thank us they burn American flags and scream “Death to America! Allahuakbar!”
They can keep their thanks.
It would be a sign of a bigger people than they have proven themselves to be thus far anyway.
Natissa,
That muslim gratitude for you. Of course they just view our aid as a jizya.
Still think Dan is just practicing a little dawah…bet he’s one that eats a Baby Ruth in the bathroom stall like a good Muslim I used to work with during Ramadan.
My Muslim coworker brought his prayer rug and everything. Looked in one day and he was drinking a cup of coffee while praying – of course, it was more comfortable to sit at the table. 🙂
That was in 1983 and my initiation to Islam. Some things haven’t changed.
Hey, Mr. Blackiswhite!
This is totally off-topic but I got to thinking about you when I came across this article because of something you had written in your “what is freedom?” post:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6893B720100910?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a49:g43:r5:c0.040091:b37237506:z0
These e-cigs are the hottest thing to hit the market. Rush Limbaugh loves ’em. How much you wanna bet Big Tobacco is having a fit, so the FDA has to rush in and save the day by regulating and taxing the hell out of e-cig manufacturers?
Interesting. One of the biggest myths promulgated through the ranks is our government, both federal and state, wish for people to quit tobacco use.
Public health is the ruse – the objective is to continue to fill their public coffers first.
Wonder how e-cigs are different than Nicorette Gum, which of course government takes their cut from that too?
I won’t return on this off topic point but it is worthy to note some truth here.
The e cig things are providing a drug and not always just nicotine. I don’t think peoples Libertarian or Tea Party traits should blind them from modern day quackery.
What “drug” is that?
How many “drugs” can you get without a prescription over at the local GNC?
Whatever happened to letting the consumer make the decisions for themselves?
She tells it like it is
“Dan, who are the moderates? Specifically. ”
Good luck. I ask the stupid drone the same question.
Would a “moderate” support Sharia Law?
Would a “moderate” support a mosque on Ground Zero?
Would a “‘moderate” support islamic oppression on non muslims in islamic lands?
Would a “moderate” support lawsuits against companies because muslims arent treated special?
Is islam a “moderate” ideology?
Hey Dan, are you one of those stupid drones with a “Co-exist” bumper sticks on the back of their cars?
Would a “moderate” try to emulate the behavior of islam’s founder?
Dan, it would do you justice to read the Koran. I have, twice now, and you may borrow one of my copies.
Can I be there when he goes to pick it up?
Dan isnt interested in actually reading whats in that unholy book.
“What I’m saying is that it is wrong to blame the whole for the actions of the few.”
Is it wrong to condemn the whole religion when those horrible things are actually encouraged in the unholy koran and islam’s own “prophet” actually did the same things as these “few” do today. Its ok dont answer pussy. I dont expect you to.
“You go after the bad actors and recruit the support of the rational folk.”
Was islam’s own “prophet” a “bad actor”? Again dont answer wuss. That you cant refute what I say just shows everyone that I am right and your are just a weaselly little coward.
Poll: What was the Obamateurism of the Week?
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/09/12/poll-what-was-the-obamateurism-of-the-week-63/
Dont forget to vote.
Dan continues to ignore it’s not the actions of a “few.” That is a bald faced lie, where over 80 countries have experienced the “few”‘s unique form of peace. I have no idea how the man comes to his conclusions, but undoubtedly he’s missed the news the last 30 years. Muslim terrorism is both wide spread and a daily occurrence. You would think Dan, a professed Christian, would be interested in truth (see Sudan Dan, then tell me about Islamic peace), but it is obvious for whatever reason, he has chosen to willingly avoid the truth.
Dan is either terribly misinformed which I have now proven to him time and again and he has chosen to ignore the facts, or he is simply confused – and probably a whole bunch of both.
I gave the man the day-to-day run down of terrorist incidents in the name of allah. You can’t get anymore specific than that.
Some people, mostly libs, make a concerted effort to avoid the facts which endangers all of us. Most would claim to be passive, but in actuality are passive aggressive. I think Dan is a textbook case of this.
Tex,
Dan is a text book case of a moron who will tolerate intolerance but is intolerant to tolerance. He demonstrates time and time again that the left has a soft spot for islam, no matter the brutality and oppression it demonstrates.
Elric,
Like I said – Judenrat like and coward, hiding behind the freedoms of which were simply granted by birthright.
This was reserved for Dante’s lowest level of hell. 🙂
One thing I do have to give credit to Muslims Elric. They have perfected the act of victimhood.
I saw a study done the other day, categorizing “hate crime” (as if there is such another thing) by religious affiliation. Guess which religious persuasion is most likely to be a victim of a hate crime? Give you a hint. It ain’t Muslims.
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/08/27/2989095/fbi-data-hate-crimes-against-muslims.html#storylink=scinlineshareb
Facts are such an inconvenient thing…
Tex,
Perhaps we can name Dan “Christianrat”. You know, since he is willing to sell out his fellow Christians to islam.
islam is a fascinating “religion”. Only ideology that can play victim and aggressor simultaneously. Really breathtaking how they pull it off.
They mentioned those statistics at the rally yesterday. But yet these vile drones still smear us as an “islamophobe” nation. And for the record, I dont like the term “hate crime”. Too Orwellian for my taste.
Isn’t that the truth? Can you imagine the lib reaction if 19 Jews had flown four planes into buildings and a field in the name of God? What about Christians in the name of Jesus?
Nah, to libs all religions are the same, and the only “pure” religion is the lack of one. Of course, history doesn’t hold atheistic countries in a favorable light either – but we’ll ignore those facts.
Tex,
Here is another example. Just the other day, a muslim woman went on a shooting rampage but the left is silent. But they still love to bring up Timothy McVeigh “the Christian”.
Founder of Islamic charity convicted of funneling money to Chechen jihadists
Islamic “charities” supporting jihadists: funny how that keeps happening. And it does because there is not the traditional separation between combatant and charitable activities in zakat as there is in the Western tradition, where charitable groups are strictly non-combatant. Rather, Qur’an 9:60 makes no such distinction when discussing groups to whom zakat may be allotted, including those fighting “in the cause of Allah” (jihad fi sabil Allah).
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/founder-of-islamic-charity-convicted-of-funneling-money-to-chechen-jihadists.html
There’s your islamic “charity” for you Christenrat. Something else for you to ignore because the truth is not on your side.
That one always made me giggle too. Except until about the last 15 minutes of his life, McVeigh was an avowed atheist and was actually hostile about God. Numerous broadcasts here in good old backward Oklahoma. 🙂 Of course, being raised in Catholic home before turning cheek, McVeigh found the wherewithal to ask for last rites. Funny how that happens.
While Rutherford almost always condemns someone like Franklin Graham, though Graham’s Samaritan’s purse has amongst other things brought millions of dollars in relief to Muslim and/or African nations and that’s one of hundreds of wonderful charitable works, his favorite example of Christian is the goon that shot Tiller the baby Killer – that’s a common occurrence. He’ll add the idiot preacher from Florida as an arrow in the quiver. Every time Rutherford condemns Franklin Graham, it’s the clearest indicator of his confusion and poor ability to judge real character. Graham is one of the best examples of Christianity.
http://www.samaritanspurse.org/
These people like Rutherford, Hippie and Dan are so intellectually dishonest on these blogs when it comes to their opinion of anything of ‘religion’, it’s laughable. It’s nothing of worship and everything of politic. Like I said to BiC, the other day, the Apostle Paul noted their type 2,000 years ago and it is to be expected.
Tex,
And thats why I dont engage with such dishonest people. Whats the point? At least you have the decency to mock and ridicule them as they deserve.
Six Flags Muslim Family Day & Terror (video)
Posted on September 12, 2010 by creeping
A somber weekend for those remembering the attacks by Muslim terrorists on September 11. But not for the Ummah who threatened Americans all week, celebrated the victory mosque in NYC on Friday, celebrated the end of the month of jihad on Saturday, and the ceremonial conquests continue at Six Flags on Sunday, September 12.
Los Angeles, New Jersey, DC, Boston / New England, San Fran / Vallejo, Atlanta, Dallas / Ft. Worth, Chicago
As noted in previous posts, below, this event originally barred non-Muslims from attending. Now, it dictates how non-Muslim employees can dress – all not to offend Muslims (ala sharia law).
Does Six Flags have any idea who ICNA is or what ICNA represents? Here is just a little background on ICNA:
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/six-flags-muslim-family-day-terror-video/
The drone asked for more evidence of bowing to islam. Well more evidence for the drone to ignore.
Look, in case you missed it, I am a Christian. I don’t think Islam has it right, generally. I think there is a great deal wrong with Islam as it is practiced in this world too often. WHEN individual Muslims (or nationally, where it’s a Muslim country) are oppressive towards women, gays and other folk, THEY ARE WRONG. When individual Muslims (or in groups) attack and kill people, THEY ARE WRONG. I’ve said this repeatedly, but sometimes folk seem to forget that. I’m not defending misbehaving Muslims.
Just a quick shot before I’m off to church.
You profess agreement that the despicable things done in the name of Islam are just that. So what is there about it that is worth preservation, Dan? You have voiced concern for the peace-loving ones who are nice people. Wouldn’t the most charitable thing you could do be to get them away from its murderous tenents, as soon as possible?
He’s afraid of being labeled a “bigot.”
To declare Islam to be a lie and evil is to take a real stand and make an absolute judgment call about a belief system that over 1 billion people on this planet adhere to.
No. I believe in free will and letting people make their own decisions. The most charitable thing to do is to respect them to make their own decisions and not to slander a whole group of people based upon the actions of a few. Beyond that, I, you, we can NEVER reach a group of people with what we think are better ways by slander and false charges and bigotry. Such disrespectful behavior is counterproductive to Christian outreach.
Just because some Muslims are murderous idiots does not make all Muslims murderous idiots. In the interest of Truth, I object to and will oppose such slander.
You want to talk about the idiot, murderous Muslims? Let’s talk about them and I’ll agree with you. Those who’d target innocent people are just cowardly thugs. Targeting innocents is always cowardly and immoral and I have nothing but contempt for those who’d engage in such behavior.
You want to smear a whole group of people based on the actions of a few? I will just point out that as the bigotry it is.
Who the heck is trying to keep people from making their own decisions, Dan?
Hell, we can’t even publicly burn some Korans at a church on private property without the FBI coming to visit.
“the actions of a few”
Tens of thousands of Muslims violently protesting in Afghanistan over a PROPOSED burning of Korans in America is a few?!
Are you serious?
Global violence in multiple countries by hordes of hundreds and even thousands is a few?!
Who the heck is “smearing a whole group of people”?
I’m smearing the damn religion itself.
If people want to be foolish enough to choose to practice it, that’s their problem. However, I’d wager that most Muslims (especially the women) in Islamic countries are Muslim because they have to be.
But that’s another topic.
Yes, there are WAY too many violent Muslims. As I’ve repeatedly said. Yes, that number is in the thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, which is WAY too many. As I’ve said.
But there are over a billion Muslims in the world. If we assume 10,000 violent Muslims, that comes to a fraction of 1%. THAT is a relative few, in light of the whole.
When you smear the religion, you smear its followers. If someone said, “All Christians are baby-eaters,” they would be smearing all Christians. If some idiot said that “Christianity is at war with us,” they’d be smearing all Christians.
Does that clear things up?
Okay, that was 10,000 Muslims in one city, Dan. You try that in multiple cities in multiple countries and you’ve got far more than 1%.
By the way, have you seen this video?
Yeah, this is Paris. 2010.
“Smearing” implies lying.
I’m not lying when I say that Islam is evil. I’m not lying when I say Islam is based on the lie of an illiterate, slave-trading, war-mongering, lustful, selfish, wicked wannabe-prophet.
Is it “smearing” white supremacists if I say that white supremacy is an evil belief?
Yes, it is smearing, it is lying and it is atrocious. Shame on you.
Islam, with all its faults, is not like the KKK (a nominally Christian group who, obviously, don’t represent Christian values). Calling Islam itself evil is as wrong as calling Judaism evil or Buddhism evil. It is a smear. It is a lie.
Do I think Muslims are WRONG on many points? Well, sure I do. But they are RIGHT on many points, as well. They honor the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. They call for love of neighbor, for opposition to oppression, that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty. Do you think these things are evil?
Now, you may reasonably make the argument that some parts of Islam are wrong, you may make the argument that some Muslims misbehave and engage in evil acts, but I don’t see how you can reasonably call Islam itself “evil,” because that seems to suggest that every teaching in Islam is evil and that is clearly not the case.
And as I said, 10,000 is a FRACTION of one percent. Let’s assume ONE MILLION Muslims are willing to engage in deadly violence against innocent people (I don’t believe you could come close to proving this, as I don’t think it’s the case, but let’s presume that’s a reasonable number). Do you know what percentage 1 million is of 1 Billion? That’s ONE TENTH of one percent (I think, my math is really really bad – but I’m right there, right?)
Is ONE MILLION a horribly high number and a problem? YES! But it is a TINY FRACTION of the whole of Islam. THAT is my point. We need to support and ally with the vast moderate Muslim population to join against the violent and deadly ones.
This is the only reasonable answer.
What other answer would you have for dealing with ONE TENTH of ONE PERCENT of Muslims?
Yes, it is a lie to say that Islam is evil, that’s what I’m suggesting. But you tell me: What do you MEAN when you say Islam is evil? Do you mean that every teaching of Islam is wrong, bad and evil? Do you mean that MOST teachings of Islam are wrong, bad and evil? Do you mean that SOME INTERPRETATIONS of SOME TEACHINGS of Islam are evil?
I could actually agree with that last one. For THOSE FEW MUSLIMS who think that Islamic teaching would endorse killing innocent people, or that oppressing women or denying gay folk basic human rights is a good thing, I would agree that those are evil takes on Islamic teachings. Just as I think that THOSE CHRISTIANS who would endorse oppressing women or gays have an evil take on Christian teachings.
So, what do you mean when you make the incredibly broad claim that “Islam is evil.”?
I’m going to try to put things into perspective for you, Dan.
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.
Did you get that?
And Islam is just like the KKK, except it doesn’t call for racial supremacy. It calls for religious supremacy through the enforcement of sharia.
Muslims do not honor the God of the Bible, because the God of the Bible is not the god of the Koran. Any five year old could figure that out. And Muslims believe Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael were MUSLIMS and that the Jews and Christians have corrupted the Bible.
Islam does not call for the love of neighbor. It calls for the love of brother (fellow Muslim.) The Koran commands hatred of non-Muslims. Of course, if you had read the Koran, you’d know that.
The most effective (and most dangerous) kinds of lies are those garbed in truth. Why do you think the serpent was so successful with Eve?
And what I find incredibly hilarious is that you don’t consider it possible that most Muslims in Islamic countries would be willing to kill innocent people if provoked. First of all, you don’t even know what the definition of “innocent” is in Islam. Learn that, and then maybe we can talk.
Secondly, it is the wealth from PRIVATE CITIZENS in ISLAMIC COUNTRIES who are funding groups like the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In fact, the Taliban gets more money from private donations than through the opium drug trade.
Islam is evil because it contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any Christian should be willing to acknowledge that simple truth.
How long have you studied Islam, Natassia? Which Islamic scholars have you studied and read? How many times have you read the whole of the Quran? What is your source for information about Islam?
Shall I take a guess? You haven’t EVER really studied Islam, you’ve just read what a few Christian writers have had to say about it and looked up their cherry-picked verses in the Quran that supported their view.
You have not read ANY Islamic scholars in any depth.
You’ve never read the whole Quran.
Your source for information on Islam are a few Christian and right wing writers and a few videos found on the nuttier side of the blogosphere.
Am I correct? You sound as if you are someone who has bigoted views and who is speaking from a position of extreme ignorance after reading other bigoted people who validated your bigoted views, am I mistaken on that front?
Natassia…
Islam is evil because it contradicts the gospel of Jesus Christ.
No, Islam is WRONG according to us Christians because it draws conclusions contrary to gospel of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between being wrong and being evil. For instance, you are WRONG when you suggest Islam is at war with us. Obviously stunningly amazingly head over heels wrong. But that doesn’t make you evil, does it? Sometimes, people are just wrong. I sure am. I’m sure you are. Doesn’t mean you are evil. Just mistaken.
It happens. Just don’t confuse ignorance for evil.
Dan,
I have been studying Islam ever since I seriously looked into converting to it several years ago.
Yeah, I was one of those agnostic folks, searching for the truth, and completely open-minded to the idea that the Bible really was corrupted and Muhammad was the final prophet who came to clear things up.
Yeah, that was me.
So don’t talk to me about cherry-picking crap. I was so close to taking shahadah, you have no idea.
One question for you:
Is Jesus Christ THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE?
Natassia…
Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.
I’m not impressed with your unsupported stat (which I don’t doubt, just noting that you’ve offered no proof for this claim). The Klan has been defanged and marginalized for nearly 50 years now. They are mostly just a bunch of angry impotent old white farts.
You want to make a comparison, compare racists from the slave trading years (mostly white, mostly nominally Christian). It is estimated that MILLIONS of Africans died in the slave trade evil, conducted largely by white Christians.
How many folk have Muslim terrorists killed? WAYY TOO MANY! But still, I doubt that there’s any comparison to the body count from hundreds of years of racist slave trading.
What ended the slave trade and such violent overt racism? A revival of thinking, moving “moderate” white folk and Christians further and further away from acceptance of the evils of slave trade and racism and marginalizing the extremists. THIS is what we need to do with the minority of “bad” Muslims, marginalize them and support the moderate, reasonable ones.
To blame ALL Muslims and say we’re at war with Islam would be comparable to folk 100-200 years ago saying it’s the fault of ALL white folk and we’re at war with Christianity. It’s a non-starter. It’s a losing proposition and bound to fail.
No, you marginalize and condemn the bad actors and support and make allies of the reasonable moderates in the group.
As then, so too, now.
What would YOU propose we do, if not this obvious step?
Natassia…
One question for you:
Is Jesus Christ THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE?
I’m a Christian. YES, I think Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. I’m a believer in God’s grace, by which I’m saved, through faith in Jesus. The Jesus who teaches us to respect all people, to love our neighbors (even the hated Samaritans), who taught us to even LOVE OUR ENEMIES! The Jesus who taught quite clearly that those who slander, who misrepresent, who bear false witness… that such behavior is NOT part of the Kingdom of God.
THAT is part of the Way and Truth and Life. So, when I see people slandering or condemning a whole group based upon the actions of a few people, I speak out, in Christian love, because – as was noted in another post – it is honorable to speak out when people are attacking someone, even if it hurts your reputation or people then attack you. This is part of the Kingdom of God.
Right?
Funny how you hold up the de-fanging of the KKK as a reason we saw a dramatic drop in lynchings after 1965…and yet the idea that we should de-fang Islam is ludicrous despite how deadly it is.
Statistics on lynchings, statistics on jihad.
Why can’t we defang and marginalize Islam so that we don’t have any more 9/11’s or Fort Hoods or Time Squares, etc. etc.? How about we defang it so we don’t have problems like female genital mutilation, and secret hymen replacement surgery, and honor killings, and so forth?
And the African slave trade would not have been such a “success” (for the white slavers) had they not had the cooperation from African tribes and Arab slave traders. The Muslim slave trade was by far the most vast and longest living in recorded history. But lets not talk about that.
You are making one huge mistake in comparing the marginalizing of white supremacy with the marginalizing of Islamic fundamentalism. There is no white supremacy “holy book.” There is no white supremacy “holy doctrine.” There is no white supremacy “way-of-life.” We can’t stop white supremacy because we can’t control what people think. We can only disincentivize people from outwardly expressing those thoughts.
How do you plan on doing that with Islam?
What do I propose we do? Give employers back the freedom to discriminate in hiring, number one. Number two, I’d restrict immigration into the U.S. from all Muslim countries. Number three, (assuming I’m POTUS here) I would publically denounce Islam as a dangerous ideology, and I would support Americans who protest against it. Number four, I’d try to find a way to incentivize Muslims into moving to Islamic countries…maybe offering to buy them out and send them on a plane with loads of cash.
But that’s fantasy talking, right there. 🙂
And regarding your Christian remarks. Why is it not loving to speak the truth about something just because your enemies might disagree with you? This is lunacy. Read Matthew 23. Jesus certainly didn’t hold back the truth just because it might offend someone and piss them off.
Look, read this. It’s a brief discussion between a Catholic blogger and some of her readers regarding Islam. It is pertinent to this discussion.
Dan, my comment is in moderation because I provided links.
I think we’ve exhausted this discussion anyway.
See you around.
Oh, and one more thing, Dan.
You seem to have real trouble separating Islam from its followers.
Just because I declare a belief system to be evil, it doesn’t mean that I believe every adherent to that belief system is an evil person. I don’t try to judge souls, Dan. That’s not my job.
I’m sure there were plenty of good-hearted Germans who supported Nazism, and plenty of good-hearted Russians who supported communism.
It doesn’t make those belief systems any less wicked.
Islam is not comparable to Nazism. The comparison is a daft one. One is a religion, the other a fascist political system.
Godwin’s Law. You lose.
Try again.
Its an ideology Dan, so yes, they do apply, Dan. When people live according to a certain ideal, Dan, and that ideal has political application, Dan, then those ideas play in the same intellectual arean, Dan.
You lose, Dan.
Elric,
It varies for different people. I don’t engage people that bore me. I’ll mock them – like B-Ville Yellow Dawg.
But for some reason, I have always found both Rutherford and Hippie interesting – totally adversarial to my way of thinking, of course, but interesting nonetheless. They almost always come to the wrong conclusion, but at least they have their reasons for drawing the wrong conclusions.
Plus I’ve always felt it important to at least hear both sides before coming to a conclusion. I learn as much from wrong-headed thinking as I do good advice. Besides, knowing what these Leftists believe makes it less complicated to defeat them. I consider these tongue lashing we give each other as much gathering information as I do debate. Because if you’ve talked to one lib, you’ve talked to them all as they practice the animal mentality of herd, and it helps me prepare an offensive when it counts. Like November.
And since I know they don’t believe me, take this room for instance. Most of us Conservatives are conservative for different reasons. Some of us it’s based on what we perceive the moral aspects. Some like Gorilla are without religion, but respectful. He’s interested in the history and military. BiC and to a lesser degree Alfie cross both those lines and the rule of law. The guys from the Hostages site – mostly political. Natassia and Cathy are well versed (I like their posts), but they read very differently from the rest of us. Yet we all come to the same basic conclusions.
Democratic party, big tent? Baloney…it’s group think.
But while I think their politics defeatist and even dangerous, I like the debate of Hippie and Rutherford. Two Leftists who don’t censor. Right wing echo chambers are boring as hell.
Tex,
Nothing wrong with hearing them out. But after awhile, you know what they will say and you end up going in circles. After 20 months with this regime and they dont change at all, well they are a lost cause. And nothing more to learn how they “think”.
You are right that the Right is a big tent compared to the left. But I wouldnt count al-Faheed as a Conservative. Anyone who says a racist, antisemetic “church” with strong ties to the Nation of islam is a real Christian church is not a Conservative nor even a moderate. You being a devote Christian, I would think you would take a strong defense to it. But thats just me.
And no I dont like an echo chamber but I dont like going around in circles and people dodging the truth because it threatens their group think either.
Hey Dan, you got that mouth ball handy?
Gorilla,
Its just islam being islam. Nothing to see, move along.
Gorilla,
Also, Dan’s name is now “Christianrat” since he doesnt care how Christians are treated in the islamic world, just how muslims are treated in the West. Thats Christianrat’s only concern.
What would make you think I don’t care how Christians are treated in the “Islamic world?” I AM a Christian. As such, I care how anyone is treated anywhere in the world. As such, I have dear Christian friends in Muslim Morocco and others heading to even more volatile sections of the Muslim world. I care deeply about my friends and about Christians I don’t even know living in Muslim nations. I am well aware of the troubles and dangers they may sometimes may be in.
And for my friends who have been living in Morocco (as a Christian pastor, no less) for many many years now, do you know what they express the most concern about? Fellow Christians like this fella in Florida and others of his ilk. They generate bad feelings and dangerous climate for Christians living in Muslim nations. My Christian friends do just fine, thank you very much, with their Muslim neighbors in general. They’re not worried about Muslims in general and especially about the Muslims they know personally and hold as dear friends. It’s just when idiots like this Christian fella rile up the idiots within the Muslim faith that they have concerns.
So, quite obviously in the real world, you are just mistaken to suggest that I am not concerned about others, and especially about Christians living in Muslim nations. I have too much personally at stake to not be concerned about it.
Of course, I recognize that this is just more idiotic and brainless ad homs that I should just ignore, but I would thought I’d clarify the idiocy and ignorance of that particular statement with a bit of real world factuality.
Why does extremism of the religion of peace lead to violence and irrationality?
If Pastor Jones is an “idiot of the Christian faith”, I’d take one of those any day if a terrorist is an “idiot of the Muslim faith.”
You don’t even realize what you are saying, Dan.
Why is Islam so different?
“I dont like an echo chamber but I dont like going around in circles and people dodging the truth because it threatens their group think either.”
Amen.
islam loves to use symbolism. When they were caught calling the GZ victory mosque the Cordoba project, they switched the name to an innocent sounding Park51 project. But again there is meaning behind it. These verses are in Chapter 51 of the unholy koran.
(44. But they insolently defied the command of their Lord, so the Sa`iqah overtook them while they were looking.) (45. Then they were unable to rise up, nor could they help themselves.) (46. (So were) the people of Nuh before them. Verily, they were a people who were rebellious.) (47. With Hands We constructed the heaven. Verily, We are able to expand the vastness of space thereof.) (48. And We have made the earth a Firash; how excellent spreader (thereof) are We!)
For you novices in islam, a firash is a small prayer rug.
Righteous defenders of the Qur’an murder two in Afghan Qur’an-burning protests
These killers are monstrous. They have assassinated innocent people for something that did not happen, and that the murdered people couldn’t conceivably have had anything to do with. And yet instead of calling them monstrous and demanding that Islamic leaders stop inciting and approving of such behavior, Barack Obama and David Petraeus urged pastor Terry Jones to drop his plans. It is, apparently, the West’s responsibility to make sure the Islamic world behaves in a civilized manner. How paternalistic and ethnocentric of Obama and Petraeus. “Two Afghans killed as Koran protests simmer,” by Paul Tait for Reuters, September 12:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/righteous-defenders-of-the-quran-murder-two-in-afghan-quran-burning-protests.html
And yet, the left defend these savages and make excuses for them.
This is the Egyptian Copt that spoke at the rally yesterday. He have lived under islam unlike you drones. Shame on you drones for supporting this brutal ideology because you feel you must do so in order to marginalize and smear Christianity. That even includes you al-Faheed. Listen if you dare.
There may be assorted “moderate muslims” sprinkled throughout the world, But as of yet, there has not been one mosque/iman who has consistently supported the West’s (specifically the US) actions in trying to contain the so called “more radical agents of islam”.
I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing. There are either those who are (more) open or overt in their actions and where their monies go, and those who are covert and or passive. But the end result or goal is the same. The stated goal of islam is to either have humanity submit to “the will of Allah” or subjugate to same.
The Quaran, and the ahadith, spell it out in quite a straight forward manner. Whether it is done quickly or over the course of many generations, “that malignant philosophy, posing as a religion”, seeks nothing more or less then control of humanity.
Guy,
You are so right. Only an idiot or a traitor would discount islam’s own words and actions. How much more evidence does one need? Seriously.
Boo-freaking-hoo: Muslims Face Growing Bias in The Workplace.
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/12/boo-freaking-hoo-muslims-face-growing-bias-in-the-workplace/#comment-250103
Good
I second that one, Elric.
Good.
Just for fun, a little news I heard today in church…
Darfuri Muslims are working with Christians to build a church in Southern Sudan as a symbol of reconciliation and gratitude.
The Muslims, members of the Darfur Students Association at the University of Juba, say they want to express gratitude to Lopez Lomong, a Sudan-born American track and field athlete who has publicly urged China to pressure the Sudanese government to end the conflict in Darfur.
Good luck with that. Now the Darfur Students Association will have a fatwa put on their heads.
Natassia,
I told you Christianrat is a dishonest jerk. You will never get any honesty out of the douchbag.
“You seem to have real trouble separating Islam from its followers.”
Its not trouble its intentional. Its easier for drones like Christianrat to smear you. Deep down he knows we are attacking the islamic ideology which is violent, intolerant and oppressive.
“Islam is not comparable to Nazism. The comparison is a daft one. One is a religion, the other a fascist political system.”
islam is also a political ideology asshole.
He only sees the religious terminology. He is ignorantly making assumptions about Islam without actually submersing himself in what it REALLY is.
At a remote firebase east of here, squad leader Sgt. John Ellis says he found children selling heroin wrapped in torn pages of the Quran in the village streets.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-09-12-child-soldiers-afghanistan_N.htm?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomWorld-TopStories+%28News+-+World+-+Top+Stories%29
But yet the drones are afraid of someone exercising his 1st Amendment rights to burn it because it will incite the muslims. Even our muslim “president” said so.
Natassia,
I like how the moron attacked you about your knowledge of islam when he doesnt know a damn thing about it. Its also rather disturbing how these Christianrats fight tooth and nail to defend islam but could care less about the treatment of real Christians in islamic lands.
India: Muslims Outraged by Rumored Koran Desecration in Michigan Try And Set Christian Church on Fire…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6545098.cms
This is how islam reacts. Feel proud Christianrat?
Feds Spent $800,000 of Obama’s Stimulus Bill Teaching African Men How to Wash Their Junk After Having Sex
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/13/feds-spent-800000-of-obamas-stimulus-bill-teaching-african-men-how-to-wash-their-junk-after-having-sex/#comment-250448
The government the drones worship.
Hartford City Council Cancels Plan to Begin Meetings With Islamic Prayers After Flood of Complaints, CAIR Plans to Protest…
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/75228
I am sure the CT drone is devastated.
Iranian-Backed TV Inflames Riots in Muslim-Majority Kashmir, 15 Dead
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/09/13/2010-09-13_india_forces_in_kashmir_battle_protesters_after_video_of_american_desecrating_ko.html
And the leftist backed “religion”
Somalia: Islamists Execute Christian Leader, Kidnap His Children to Convert Them to Islam…
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/13/somalia-islamists-execute-christian-leader-kidnap-his-children-to-convert-them-to-islam/#comments
Feel good Christianrat?
Its interesting that besides Christianrat, no drone has commented here.
Supreme Court Justice Breyer: Koran Burning May Not Be Covered by First Amendment, “Like Shouting Fire in a Crowded Theatre”…
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/14/supreme-court-justice-breyer-koran-burning-may-not-be-covered-by-first-amendment-like-shouting-fire-in-a-crowded-theatre/
Of course the drones will ignore this as well. This is what we call Sharia Law drones.
Ground Zero Imam: “In a true peace, Israel will, in our lifetimes, become one more Arab country, with a Jewish minority.”
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/14/ground-zero-imam-in-a-true-peace-israel-will-in-our-lifetimes-become-one-more-arab-country-with-a-jewish-minority/#more-61708
No wonder the left love the thug.
Muslims Attack Hindus in India: A Warning For the West? Part I
A European colleague of mine lives and works in India. Recently, he came to visit. His story was unbelievable. For the last few years, every day, day after day, he, his wife, and his wife’s family have been harassed and attacked by Muslim marauders. Both his property and his medical clinic have been attacked; his Hindu wife and relatives have had their cows stolen and slaughtered, their outbuildings destroyed, their farm property taken over. The police would not help. He had to hire private security to guard his free clinic. Finally, Muslims attacked the clinic when it was filled with patients (including, of course, Muslim patients). At the last moment, before the clinic was entirely overrun, the police reluctantly came to his aid. He had to pay many bribes, pull many strings—and still, the matter is far from over.
He did not want me to write about this. “It is simply too dangerous for a Hindu to describe, accurately, what Muslims are doing to us in our own country.” He assured me that neither the government nor the media could be counted on to “do the right thing here. The media will not say that Muslims are criminally aggressive. They are too afraid to say so. They know there will be rioting. It’s already happened.”
Sound familiar?
http://pajamasmedia.com/phyllischesler/2010/09/13/muslims-attack-hindus-in-india-part-i/
Very familiar.
Indonesia’s President Says Koran Desecration in America Could Lead to Global Religious War…
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/15/indonesias-president-says-koran-desecration-in-america-could-lead-to-global-religious-war/
Love it when muslim leaders make threats. Worry about muslims oppressing and killing Christians in your nation jerkoff.
As Muslim population grows, what can happen to a society?
http://www.examiner.com/homeland-security-in-national/as-muslim-population-grows-what-can-happen-to-a-society#comments
I will give you a hint, its never good.
Sharia law applied in New Jersey.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/sharia-at-new-jersey-transit-man-fired-for-burning-quran.html
‘Draw Mohammed Day’ Cartoonist Changes Identity, Goes Into Hiding Over ROP Death Threats…
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/15/draw-mohammed-day-cartoonist-changes-identity-goes-into-hiding-over-rop-death-threats/
So whats the tipping point drones?
Texas Takes on Sharia Law
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/09/15/Texas-school-board-takes-on-Islam/UPI-89351284579929/